Yohji Yamamoto, “I think the 80’s avant-garde in fashion is over.” in Ryuko Tsushin No. 404 (march 1997)

What kind of avant-garde does Yohji Yamamoto have in mind for the 21st century? 

At the Paris Spring/Summer 1997 Collection, Yohji Yamamoto presented pieces inspired by Chanel suits and Dior’s New Look. We decided to ask him why he, who has been at the forefront of the avant-garde, decided to present clothes that paid homage to the geniuses of Haute-Couture. In this interview, he also talks about his vision of avant-garde in the 21st century and his own stance on fashion in the future.

MR Yamamoto, you have always taken an anti-mode stance, however, in this collection you presented Haute-Couture-like clothes, right ? What was your intention behind this ?

Yamamoto : “First of all, I wanted to show that clothes are clothes, whether they are haute-couture, ethnic or the mannish clothes I have been making since the 80s. I wanted to say that there is no hierarchy in clothing genres. There are two types of ‘easy’. One is the gorgeous Italian fashion that says, ‘you can’t go wrong as long as you wear this’. The other is the 70’s-style clothes worn by young people, whether they are made by professionals or amateurs. Such clothes can be made with the prototypes studied in dressmaking school, so the quality of the cut has nothing to do with it. In that sense, these clothes are very simple. But if you wear them, you can relax knowing that you are somehow wearing the latest fashions. What both types of easy fashion have in common is that there is no questioning : you wear what everyone else is wearing, without questioning it. So it’s hard to find people whose modern fashion shows off their individuality. This collection is a questioning of all those things. Would a woman who really thinks and worries wear a Chanel suit as it is? Would a person who has trained her own individuality by wearing a variety of clothes really dress like she did in the 1970s? From this perspective, I wanted to present a show in which I would look at representative pieces from the past in this way.”

You mean you rearranged representative pieces in your own way?

Yamamoto : "For example, I showed what Coco Chanel would have done if she were alive, or what Christian Dior or Balenciaga would have done, in my own way.”

Do you think that clothes from the 1970s are in bad taste?

Yamamoto : “I do.The only thing I didn't want was to go back to clothes from the 70s. For example, when you watch American movies from the 70s, you would see men in  narrow-shouldered suits, wide pantaloons, and pointy heeled shoes. No matter how serious such an actor plays, it's just too funny to watch. The clothes take away from the authenticity of the movie. I think this is a characteristic of 70's fashion. And nowadays, Japan is overflowing with 70s fashion.” 

That is also the responsibility of journalists. In a word, 70s fashion is childish isn’t it ?

Yamamoto : “That's right, it is childish. It is a personal and arbitrary combination of ingenuity, and from our point of view it is a fashion that has not been studied and has not been strictly refined. Therefore there is no energy, no taste. It's kind of a languid fashion."

But Yohji-san, you created Y's in the 1970s, didn't you?

Yamamoto : “That's right. So in the 1970s, I made only men's clothes and tried to make women wear them. Even now, I still think that women look sexier when they wear mannish clothes.”

At that time, you were trying to change the way people looked at the value of clothing by making clothes that encompassed the body in a way that had never been seen before, weren’t you ?

Yamamoto : “To put it simply, we were going sizing-less. The theme was clothes without size.”

Yohji-san, you who had experienced such innovative things in the 1970s, might feel that today's “70s” trends are fake.

Yamamoto : “But I think it is refreshing. In Japan, when people who grew up with (Comme des) Garçons, Issey (Miyake), Yohji etc. came across clothes from the 1970s, it must have been refreshing. I think it's the same feeling that haute-couture was fresh in the '80s and early '90s.”

On the other hand, you could say that today's world is becoming more and more conservative, and young people are closed to new things. What do you think about the opinion that the current 70s trend represents conservatism?

Yamamoto : “I see. Conservatism is really deep-rooted now, isn't it? All over the world, the value of one's birthplace or family background has become so important that it has developed into nationalism, and we are fighting all kinds of small wars. And because nationalists are so obsessed with their roots and identity, they begin to overstate their old traditions and culture. So they are always looking back to the past. The same thing happens in Japan, too. I think this is a very difficult time to live in for young people who have doubts about these things and try to stand up for themselves with strong will.”

So again, I would like to ask the head of the avant-garde movement…(laughs)... In the fashion world, the idea and style of avant-garde was born in the late 60s, and then it emerged in the 70s, and again in the 80s as a reaction against conservatism. From your perspective, Yohji-san, who has been in the mainstream of the avant-garde, how do you think the idea of avant-garde will change from the 1990s into the next century?

Yamamoto : “The term avant-garde in fashion has become a synonym for the avant-garde of the 1980s, but I think that should end now. The key word for avant-garde in the 21st century will probably be the rediscovery of the body. The characteristic of avant-garde in the 1980s was the resistance to the geniuses of haute couture who created an ideal female body, like a sculpture, more beautiful than the female body itself. In the 90's, we were more likely to dress women in large men's clothes and wrap them loosely around their bodies. That's why we wore asymmetrical dresses. In the future, I think that ideas and philosophies will disappear, and we will enter an era in which we will have faith in the body. When I think about avant-garde with the body as the key word, I think of sex and sports. I feel that the next avant-garde will come when there is something that goes beyond sex and sports in clothing production. For example, there are already new fashions coming out of sports. Nike is the best example. Nike did not start out making sneakers with the intention of making fashion, but before you know it, they have become fashionable.”

In the case of sex, can we consider it a gender issue? 

Yamamoto : “That’s right. This ties in with what I said earlier, but I think that the roles of men and women will become more conservative in the future. For example, in the U.S., there are many calls for the restoration of the home and family. In Japan, I think that the traditional image of the family with the father as the patriarch will come back to be respected. Naturally, there will be strong protests against it. Rebellion is bound to emerge. I think young people who are determined to live on their own will begin to reject the norms of family and sexuality. I believe that out of this energy will come new fashions.”

So, what do you think about the influence of futurism that overseas designers are starting to talk about?

Yamamoto : “Basically, I take an anti-futurist stance. People like both new and old things, and in the same way, we like synthetic fibers and natural fibers. Therefore, it is not easy to categorize each taste into ‘-isms’. In that sense, I don't mind if there are people who strive for futuristic clothing, but I don't think everyone will wear futuristic clothing in the future, at least that's not the stance I take. Ideally, a person with a truly refined sense of style should be able to choose what suits him or her from a wide range of items, including vintage and futuristic clothes, Chanel and Comme des Garçons. I hope that more and more people will have the sense to choose the best of the best. However, recently, people's taste has been getting worse…”

Fashion is supposed to be fun, but nowadays it seems like everyone is forgetting that, don’t you think ?

Yamamoto : “I feel the same way. Compared to the 1980s,I think fashion itself has lost its power to influence society. Fashion and Mode (モード) have the power to shake up the world's entertainment culture. I think we have to demonstrate it once again. That's why I want to say to the people who make clothes, ‘Are you a designer or a stylist? If you consider yourself a designer, I think you should distance yourself from what’s popular or what’s trending, and struggle to create clothes that only you can make.’ But now the market has been perfected, so even if young people show their talent and freely make clothes, there is no chance for them to sell their clothes on the market as it currently is.''

If you look at the Tokyo Collection, most of the designers are involved in merchandising rather than creative fashion. When I wonder what the future holds for Tokyo’s fashion, I even feel a sense of crisis. 

Yamamoto : “I would like to say to the designers who are making such clothes, as well as to the department stores and buyers nationwide, through Ryuko Tsushin magazine, that if you continue as you are, all the talented people will go abroad.”

Maybe that's why recently I've been hearing young people saying, “I've been thinking about becoming a designer, but today's designers are kind of uncool.” What do you think ?

Yamamoto : “I think (Rei) Kawakubo-san is cool, and there are several fashion designers who I think are cool. However, in general, the current designers are not cool. This is different from the days when there were many children who wanted to become designers just because of the image they had. I think this is because young people have a keen sensitivity, and they are beginning to rebel against so-called ‘empty professions’. In other fields as well, there seems to be an increase in the number of people who want to train properly and become full-fledged craftspeople, and I think that is a good thing.”

What other designers do you think are cool?

Yamamoto : “Azzedine Alaia. The way he lives his life is cool.

What about the young Ann Demeulemeester?

Yamamoto : “I really like her clothes. I like her more than I think she's cool. I like the way her clothes just fall down smoothly. I think she is instinctively good at it.”

Cool people don't have to be designers to be cool. It's a question of the person's way of life itself, right ?

Yamamoto : “To put it another way, I think it is good if you end up becoming a designer. It doesn't matter whether you are cool or not.” 

Lastly, what is your stance on Mode in the future?

Yamamoto : “Now and forever, I will always be a dressmaker. I don’t want to be called a ‘Mode’ designer, I am a dressmaker. People call me a fashion designer, and because of that, I get asked to talk about theories and trends, but everything I want to say is expressed in my clothes. And there's no need for those clothes to be in a museum.  Fashion is only complete when it is worn by a real person who is living and breathing in the present moment, loving and grieving. That is why I want to continue to be a "dressmaker" for the rest of my life.”

you can purchase the original issue here

(This interview was first published in Japanese in Ryuko Tsushin No.404 from March 1997, and translated for the first time in English by the Archaism studio team.)